WRITERS TELL ALL
Review: HOLD ME DOWN by Clea Simon
Prolific author Clea Simon (A Spell of Murder) delivers an enchanting, guitar-shredding crescendo of a novel in Hold Me Down, a novel that can just as easily draw comparisons to Denis Johnson’s Train Dreams as Megan Abbott’s The End of Everything. Simon writes about former rock star Gal, who becomes invested in the mysterious death of a former roadie after a reunion show to benefit a former bandmate who has recently died of cancer, the illness having left her husband and daughter in debt. The novel delves deep into issues of rape, sobriety, fame, and the various ways we cope with the past and remember events and life so differently, while never letting go of a profoundly lyrical and gripping writing style that so permeates Simon’s writing as a whole. Simon clearly has a vast knowledge of music and understands all the behind-the-scenes components well, using crime fiction to investigate the horrors of trauma and the various ways we all cope, some more successful than others, leaving the reader with the question: is this a murder mystery, or something more? I’d argue the latter, with Simon pointing to the complexities of human nature, emotion, and our ability to stomach the truth and the different ways and various extremities we use when protecting those we love. As a new uncle myself, I can say that Hold Me Down hits hard and wonderfully, with the perfect balance of emotional complexity and mystery and complex character study. I was engrossed in Hold Me Down, a wonder which works on many levels, just as much as an electric rock-n-roll novel as it is a gristly murder mystery. Simon excels at delving deep into human emotions and what makes each of us tick, revealing a gift for a tremendous amount of empathy that works for both her protagonist and also some of the characters guilty of even the most heinous crimes—Simon isn’t necessarily interested in redemption as in understanding that we are not all simply black or white, good or bad. She has so much love for the people of her novels, but never sacrifices the pure noir bent of the story, always finding the edge to her multilayered characters. Simon’s latest is an absolutely not-to-miss book, a beautiful and contemplative rush of a novel you’ll want to read over again, just in case you missed anything the first time around—or just because, like the urge to listen to any favorite rock song. Simon’s prose and story is just as electric and hypnotic and breathless as the best albums you play on repeat to experience all the feels and all the fun, all at once. Fans of Megan Abbott, Alison Gaylin (especially What Remains of Me and If I Die Tonight), and Jessica Knoll will delight in Simon’s writing.
You can buy Hold Me Down here.
Aimee Bender on THE BUTTERFLY LAMPSHADE, Mental Illness from the Inside, Writing that Matters, and the Book(s) that Awe Her
Matthew Turbeville: Hi Aimee! I know you know this by now but I’m one of your biggest fans and I am so happy to have read your latest novel, The Butterfly Lampshade. I know the first thing I read by you were your stories (this was years ago) and I’m always curious for those writers who excel in stories and novels alike, how do you decide when the story you’re telling is a novel, and how do you stick with something long enough to write it at novel length? What behind the novel—and this novel in particular—drives you to see it through?
Aimee Bender: Thank you so much, Matthew! I always love talking to you about books and writing. So, let’s see. With a novel, it takes me a long time to find the thing I want to continue writing about—and so I’ll write a lot of scenes/moments/images and see what sticks, what I want to return to. Sort of like throwing a lot of spaghetti at the wall, if the stuck spaghetti will somehow eventually form a book, a shape, a sculpture?
MT: I recently said that Miriam Toews’ newest novel seems to take a lot from you—I also think of one of her oldest novels, All My Puny Sorrow, about family and mental illness. In very different ways, you both present mental illness, and those who fear it, at times as feeling the illness is perhaps fated, destined, or inevitable. What about this character and the lampshade itself contributes to this most, and what other books (or really anything) would you put The Butterfly Lampshade in conversation with?
AB: I want to read her latest. She’s incredible. I like this idea of books in conversation—for TBL, I was thinking a lot about stories where something comes alive, the Toy Story types, The Velveteen Rabbit, Ovid’s story of Galatea, the sculpture, suddenly moving, with pulse, and vitality. Even Frankenstein animating out of the bodies of corpses. But then wanting those ideas to also go along with conversations about really what is real and what isn’t. I think of Elyn Saks’ incredible memoir, The Center Cannot Hold, about her schizophrenia from the inside, and what it has been like for her. She goes into psychoanalysis because she wants to work with the anxiety that aggravates the psychosis, and lies on the couch, says things like, I killed a thousand people today. And she and the analyst would then deal with that, knowing that she was not an actual murderer. I find this incredible, truly moving in the deepest way. The courage to wander into those darkest places of the mind with another person, exploring.
MT: The protagonist, Francie, deals with losing her mother in a sense, to mental illness and hospitalization, when moving to stay with her aunt, uncle, and their newborn baby near the beginning of the novel. A lot of Francie’s narrative deals with accurately—or perhaps the better word might be solidly—cementing her memory as a sort of fact, especially when life threatens to unravel as Francie’s cousin prepares to move off to college. Can you explain about the format of the novel, how it contributes to Francie’s mindset, and what it was like writing the novel this way? How did you construct this novel, and would you describe your process and it worked with Francie’s story?
AB: Often you hear that backstory drains drama from a narrative, and maybe it was the rebellious part of me that didn’t want to follow that, that felt the dark past had such a pull on this person, and that the real tension remained in the past for her, as she sat in a quiet space in the present, perhaps finally ready to tackle it. (And to tackle it meaning here something fairly quiet-- to look at it, to consider it, feel it.) It’s a basic tenet of psychology, (and history) to think that the past is with us, as Faulkner famously said, “isn’t really past,” so I just wanted that to be the drive. And that the present would be about sitting literally and figuratively with this transitional moment in her life.
MT: There is so much love in your writing, and The Butterfly Lampshade feels like a love letter from yourself to readers, the empathy even more intense than your other (also phenomenal) books before. Do you mind talking about your history as a reader, and also the past few years or even decade and what you feel has led you to write this way, along with this specific book, and especially now?
AB: Ah, that is really so nice to hear, Matthew. It’s hard for me to gauge as I’m so close to it all, so this kind of response is very gratifying. I don’t really pick how I’m writing, but I do keep wanting to write about connection, and at the same time I have a lot of solitary characters, so it’s kind of this back-and-forth, wanting to write about contending with the self, and then seeing how that plays out with other people. I’ve been thinking so much about Ishiguro’s latest novel, and how he conveys a feeling-state, how he really creates an emotion that only can be made out of his book. And that is a kind of powerful empathy I want to emulate—to pass along an experience in such a way.
MT: What is, in your mind, the hardest part about writing? When you write, when you read a story to the crowd, if not general readers do you have a specific audience in mind? Is there any reader in specific you feel you most want to please with your most recent work?
AB: I think starting is hardest for me. Once something seems to have some energy/movement in it, then I have somewhere to go. But the dreaded blank page! This is why I love the writing exercise as a way to move things around in the brain. And re readers—I think I do now really write for someone, and it’s that someone that feels really connected to what I’m doing. I don’t know who it is, but it’s for that reader. With Lemon Cake, a couple people wrote and said it meant a lot ot them, that they felt I’d written it for them. And I wrote back and said, well, then I did; I wrote it for you. And I believe that. A book is a kind of missive into outer space. So good when it’s found, when someone receives the missive.
MT: Which books have you loved most recently, and are there any books that ground you in particular, or have helped inform you or change you greatly, especially in the past decade?
AB: So many! I’m right now reading Claire Vaye Watkins’ new novel, which comes out in October, and is stunning. I just finished The Secret Life of Church Ladies which is so inviting, so open, so hot, so able to hold feeling and cut away the bullshit. I am rereading an Agatha Christie book right now also because I had a craving. The Murder of Roger Ackroyd. How I gasped as a teen reading it! I loved her so much when I was 13, sitting in class, doing silent reading time, gawking at the reveals.
MT: In the past you’ve frequently written a lot of magical realism, or perhaps works adjacent to the genre, and I wonder what you think writing magical realism, or any different you prefer or love, can do that other genres might not be able to do. Is there an advantage to writing certain genres and can you specifically think of stories that might be told one way but wouldn’t work in another form?
AB: Yes, absolutely—I think books are so often trying to get at the worlds below the world, what’s humming underneath, and so it’s not always easy to articulate, in fact it is meaningful BECAUSE it is difficult to grasp/articulate/find words for. So then we need to and get to use whatever we can to try to capture something so fleeting that is also a part of our human experience. Why not use magic? Why not use anything/everything that feels right in the moment?
MT: What’s a book you feel you wish you’d written, and is there a story in short or long form you haven’t written yet but want to? If so, can you give us any clue as to what it might be like?
AB: I think most often here of Borges’ short, “Borges and I” where he says, so beautifully, that he feels himself more in “the laborious strumming of a guitar” than in his own work. How I sometimes feel, listening to Kate Bush, that she says the thing I’m trying to say. But I don’t really wish I’d written her song. It’s more that I just want to feel that my own listener-ship is real, that if I really think I “get it” then that matters. And so I believe that’s what’s underneath the question. As Zadie Smith says, the reader is a true participant, the “amateur musician” playing the piece the composer made, contributing, learning, expressing. So a reader, then, IS, in a way, “playing” the book that she loves. She is writing her part of it, her engagement with it. That matters, and it is the beauty of the act of reading. We can’t minimize that.
MT: Does the novel feel like it has a different meaning or place in the world now that we have a new president, are in a new decade, are all changing and living a new life? Do you think the book is somehow different than what you set out to write? How do you change, edit, develop a work while the world is changing so drastically? The question seems so relevant when thinking about The Butterfly Lampshade specifically.
AB: Great question, and hard to answer. Yes, it does feel different. Awareness is growing. But a writer also needs to follow what is findable in the moment, which means it’ll live in the time it’s written, flaws and gaps and all, and hopefully will have enough of a wide view to last beyond its moment.
MT: Is there anything in writing, whether it’s in book form or tv, etc, that really bothers you about how mental illness is presented? Is there something—anything—you feel specifically gets everything right?
AB: Yes, I think often mental illness is presented in strange ways. The same way I remember a student once referencing schizophrenia as just all these funny voices in his head! Well, no. Or how my mother trained me, because her sister was mentally ill, to critique so many films, books, TV shows that made light of it in some way. In A Beautiful Mind, the character’s “voice” is personified because it’s a film, and it’s a handsome rakish actor talking to him, and it just feels really nothing like what I’ve observed in people who do suffer from actual voices that are in their minds and often tormenting them or certainly preoccupying them.
MT: I love that your books are so great even young adults (and younger age groups, sometimes) read them—what children’s books do you recommend for children today? I have a newborn nephew and one who just turned two, but of course would love to know what books you suggest for when they’re older (and I’m crossing fingers that they’ll be big readers).
AB: Oh, so many!! On all levels. A few that come to mind right this moment--Snow Music by Lynne Rae Perkins is such a great picture book when a child is crying. It is SO soothing. Several times it was the thing that quieted my twins, even in this snowless So Cal landscape we live in. My daughter’s current favorite book is El Deafo, a great graphic novel about a young girl who loses her hearing and has to cope. We also love Leo, about a ghost/imaginary friend combo, with Christian Robinson’s gorgeous illustrations. Wild Robot is just so good and I loved reading it, kept insisting we read more. And our go-to has been My Side of the Mountain, from the 50’s, about a boy running away from home and living in the Catskills for a year on his own. Figuring out how to make things work. A book of great freedom and independence.
MT: You’re such a great influence on the world, both for writers and people who seek you out purely as readers to enjoy a great book. I know I get to experience your work in so many ways, and it’s always wonderful to see that you’re just as great of a person as any of us could hope or deserve. Thank you for letting me interview you, and I’m so thankful for your new book, The Butterfly Lampshade, out in paperback now. I encourage everyone reading this to pick up a copy, even if I’ve already mailed one their way myself. Thank you again, Aimee!
AB: Oh, thank YOU, Matthew! You are such a generous presence, and every writer that gets the chance to talk to you must feel so special. Thank you for all you do for books and readers and writers!
Matthew Turbeville: Shawn! I am so excited to interview you about your newest novel, Razorblade Tears. How does it feel to be one of the biggest superstars in literature today, and what do you think it means to be who you are (a Black man in the South who actually knows where Fayetteville/Lumberton, NC is, for example) and what about you specifically do you think you bring to writing that makes everyone such intense (possibly crazed) fans?
SA Cosby: Well thanks for having me Matthew. I don't think I'm one of the biggest stars in literature or anything but I feel so moved that people are connecting with my writing in such a positive way. I hope that it shows people are willing to read different stories from different voices
MT: I want to note before we talk in depth about Razorblade Tears that I love turning people on to a book before Blacktop Wasteland you wrote called My Darkest Prayer. Can you talk about where your writing has gone between then and now, and how you’ve evolved as a writer through your novels? What books and authors and subjects pulled you into the world of My Darkest Prayer, and how is that different from now?
SAC: I think ,I hope, my writing has become more nuanced since MDP. I love that book. It was my homage to the books I grew up loving like Devil in Blue Dress or RED HARVEST . But it was also my 1st mystery novel and I think I was a bit overly impressed with my own metaphorical prowess lol. But Nathan Waymaker ( protagonist of MDP) is near and dear to my heart. Hopefully I'll get to talk to him again some day.
MT: I know some people may frown upon me bringing race, class, the area where we live in the country into this conversation, but I think it’s important to note that decades ago, Blacktop Wasteland and now Razorblade Tears may not have been possible or been published. This isn’t limited to who you are as a person, but also what you write about, and how you write your books and the characters in them. Can you talk about the way the books are shaped, and the voices of the protagonists, and the way you make your books and characters and stories so addicting?
SAC: I think that you're exactly right. Years ago fiction that starred African American characters had a small niche in publishing. The genius of someone like Toni Morrison cannot be denied. But publishers seemed loathe to give writers of color the same opportunity to experiment in multiple genres that they give their white counterparts. Writers of color who weren't explicitly ensconced in the "literary " camp were seen as a trend. I think today we can say we are not the soup du jour...we are the whole damn meal
MT: I’ve found myself in a lot of books over the years, and I found myself in Razorblade Tears both as someone who is gay and been a victim to hate crimes (though luckily not fatal on my end) and also in ways as the reluctant father figure, the person who’s become nurturing and loving in a very hesitant way. I have more than one great love now in my nephews, and it’s frightening to see how much of me is in them, my sister, my brother-in-law I love as my brother, and I wonder what inspired your passion for this story.
SAC: I had a very close friend who is close to my age who came out a few years ago to their family. It did not go well. At first I was saddened, then I was furious. I couldn't understand how a family could turn their back on their own blood. I wanted to examine that idea and since this is fiction, I wanted to have my characters change as they confront their own prejudice. Because I firmly believe writing is a vehicle of change.
MT: There are some obvious takeways from the book, and maybe some takeaways even I’m not aware of yet (although I’m eager to reread again!). Can you talk about what you hope any reader might get from your writing, and specifically now with Razorblade Tears?
SAC: I hope readers will realize that love is all that truly matters. I hope they realize that redemption is only possible when we confront our transgressions. And finally I hope they take away that you shouldn't wait to repair burned bridges.
MT: What was the hardest part about writing this book? I hate this question, but feel now, with Razorblade Tears coming out, and how it’s more than just a great follow-up novel: were there any fears or a sense of anxiety going into writing the book that would follow Blacktop Wasteland, one of the most well-loved books in recent history?
SAC: I think the hardest part was ensuring I was telling the story in a way that didn't dehumanize any of the characters. That I allowed them to be living breathing people. That was the narrative challenge. I think personally it was a challenge to follow up BLACKTOP WASTELAND. The reception to that book was beyond any of my wildest dreams. I didn't want to let anyone down least of all my readers.
MT: There were some things about Razorblade Tears that threw me, but I also study structure, writing, screenwriting, and so some things I saw coming—and yet I couldn’t stop. I didn’t care. A lot of these things I know did surprise other early readers, but I wonder, whether something is surprising and a twist or something you don’t actually see coming, what propels you through great crime novels other than the shocking turns, and why do you think crime fiction is so important, especially today? What can it do that other genres simply can’t?
SAC: For me crime fiction is the language of the dispossessed, the lost and the broken. It's a universal story telling motif. For me as a reader it is endlessly fascinating. It's the continuous study of the best and worst of us. For me crime encompasses all other genres. A Thousand Acres is a crime novel. The Secret History is a crime novel. The Color Purple is a crime novel. Every novel is a crime novel because everyone has the potential to break societal rules
MT: Where do you start when you write a novel? What was Razorblade Teras like when you first began, and where did you see it going?
SAC: For me I have to sketch out the characters. I like to write character biographies. They never make it into the book but they give me a handle on my protagonist. Once I have that then I can begin.
MT: When dealing with race, class, sexuality, hate, etc, in fiction, or addressing issues in America, what are some issues you felt you had to confront in your novel, and is there a book, for better or worse, you feel your novel is in conversation with? What would you suggest others read along with your latest?
SAC: I think I'll always talk about race class and sexuality because these things are the foundational drivers of not only narrative but our shared communal experience. I don't know if there is a book I consider a companion piece but I was definitely inspired by Kelly J. Ford's COTTOMOUTHS. If you liked RAZORBLADE TEARS you will love that book. It's a rural noir with an LGBTQ heroine. It's so country and raw you can smell the chicken sh*t
MT: Did you write any characters you felt you couldn’t relate to, or maybe characters outside yourself, really in any of your books, and if so, did you ever feel it was hard to write these people and make them real? It never feels you struggled, but I know things can be a lot different on the other side of the page, typing on yoru screen (of if you’re a pro, writing by hand?)?
SAC: I think my villains tend to be awful people because the better your protagonist. I don't identify with them but I do my best to understand their motivation, even if that motivation is repugnant to me .
MT: What books do you feel people need to read today? What books, which authors do you think are most important to dive into today? What book would you suggest anyone to read, and what book would you say is something you turn to maybe keep writing if you feel out of sorts, or to remind you of a love for books?
SAC? Oh man that's a long list but I'll mention a few
Donald Ray Pollock
Ernest J. Gaines
Rachel Howzell Hall
And many many more
MT: I mentioned how I know people who obsess over you in a nearly scary way. You’re that great. Similarly, I wonder who are the S.A. Cosbys in your life, the ones you would kill the read, the authors you love completely?
SAC: I'm totally enamored with Donna Tartt , Dennis Lehane Walter Mosley and Stephen King and Nikki Giovanni. I'd love to have a beer with all of them.
MT: I love that you threw out Pat Conroy and The Prince of Tides once as one of your favorite Southern Gothic novels, something not everyone might consider fitting into the genre. What other books and tastes in general do you think people would be surprised to hear about? Are there any hot takes you can shoot my way? I love that you love Pat too.
SAC: Haha I don't have too many hot takes but I guess people may be surprised to know I grew up reading romance novels. My grandmother had a stack as tall as an azalea bush . I guess my only hot take is ...you can take classes to become a more technically proficient writer but ultimately you're either born a storyteller or you ain't. Nobody can teach you that.
MT: Can you give your superfans any hint at what you’re writing now, and what your next book make be like? How long do we have to wait? What can we expect?
SAC: I'm working on a Southern Gothic murder mystery that's like True Detective Season 1 meets Sharp Objects
MT: Shawn, whether it’s an interview here, or me virtually interviewing you in a private conversation, I always love talking to you about your work. Please stay in touch, and thank you always for being the great writer none of us deserve, but are so appreciative for. You are one of my favorite people and favorite authors, hands down, and I hope there are some people reading this interview and finding out about My Darkest Prayer, or buying a copy of all your books for a friend, or themselves. I hope everyone gets to read your work. It’s phenomenal and deserves to be preserved and cherished and celebrated. You deserve all the best. Thank you, Shawn.
SAC: Thank you for having me Matt. It's been a pleasure.
Meredith Davidson & Matthew Turbeville: Ruth, I am so excited to talk about your novel. I was hooked from the initial description, and I couldn’t stop reading and rereading as I went on. I find folklore, family legends, the histories we carry from our ancestors so intriguing. Why do you think these things are so important to people, and can you point to whether living with a legacy on our names, or superstition, or lore effects life for the better or worse?
Ruth Gilligan: Wow, talk about a big question to start us off! But a good one, definitely. And thank you so much for reading (and rereading) the book, I’m thrilled you enjoyed it. Needless to say, I also find these layers of belief completely intriguing. There’s this thing we call Religion with a capital ‘R’, then there is the slightly less official or formal realm of folklore slash superstition (although I have all sorts of thoughts about who gets to decide the cut-off point between these two) and then, as you mention, there are the family stories and traditions that get passed down from one generation to the next. I think in many ways, all these layers can offer roughly the same kinds of rewards and restrictions – whether it’s comfort and continuity, a sense of higher purpose, or whether it’s a stifling or prescriptive presence, as if your life choices are being dictated in all sorts of damaging ways. I have definitely experienced all those facets of faith at some point in my life.
MD/MT: What first interested you in family traditions, lore, history, and legends? What about different regions of countries or parts of the world change the way we view these different aspects of life and the past?
RG: I grew up in Ireland, which of course is known for being a fiercely religious country, but amidst all the talk of Catholicism and Protestantism, there is also this lesser-known realm of Irish folklore and superstition which, for many, is still alive and well. And what’s fascinating to me is that it’s not an ‘either or’ situation – plenty of people can have a house decked out with crucifixes and sacred heart statues, but also still believe in fairies and pagan rituals. For some that might seem contradictory, but as I mentioned before, I think the lines between these beliefs – or types of belief – are so nebulous anyway. There’s no logic and that’s the messy, beautiful point (and indeed, that’s the messy, beautiful starting point for a novelist).
MD/MT: One character, Una, wants to perhaps become a butcher, but is limited by her sex. Obviously, this should be viewed as form of sexism, but what does it say that patriarchal values, control, and lineage shapes Una so much from a young age, and how, if at all, might she and other women be able to step outside this?
RG: What does it say? It says welcome to Ireland, where the Guinness is good and the patriarchy is alive and well! I’m being facetious (slightly), and obviously times they are a-changing, but historically – and this goes back to the ‘fiercely religious’ thing – women and women’s bodies have been treated pretty appallingly in my country. The Church has so much to answer for and, like I said, progress is definitely afoot (see the historic result of the 2018 abortion referendum), but there is a still so much residual trauma – and rage – from the manifold ways in which Irish women have been systemically suppressed.
MD/MT: What was so important about setting this story during a certain time period, possibly other than issues dealing with Mad Cow’s Disease?
RG: The novel takes place over the course of a single year – 1996 – which, for me, was such a crucial pivot point in Irish history. As you mention, it was the year of the Mad Cow Disease, or BSE, crisis, but it was also the year in which Divorce was finally legalized in Ireland; the year the first gay kiss was shown on Irish TV (homosexuality had been decriminalized just three years previous); it was the year the Celtic Tiger began – that huge economic ‘boom’ that ultimately propelled Ireland onto the global stage. The millennium was around the corner, the Spice Girls were on the radio – there is a narrative of progress on the air; a sense of leaving the past, and the old ways, behind. In that way, it felt the perfect setting for the book and all the tensions I was interested in exploring.
MD/MT: Why is Ireland a land rich with legends, and what other countries do you feel are so involved with history and lore? What countries would you like to read about in a book like The Butchers’ Blessing? What countries are underrepresented in this sense, essentially?
RG: Oh Jesus, so many of them! All of them! But fortunately, more and more gorgeous novels are offering insights into these rich traditions. A Girl is A Body of Water by Jennifer Nansubuga Makumbi (set in Uganda); The Tiger’s Wife by Tea Obreht (set in the Balkans); anything by Helen Oyeyemi – from Cuba to Nigeria to the UK, she braids a whole host of histories and folklores into her work. I’m always excited to see where she takes us next.
MD/MT: What role does sexuality play within this world filled with something akin to magical realism, as many critics compare this in a very positive way to Tea Obreht’s The Tiger’s Wife? I don’t want to reveal many spoilers, but how do you feel the Butchers might represent or work as a catalyst for the awakening of someone’s sexuality, and also why this character might or might not feel tied to the land of his birth?
RG: Ha, I didn’t see your Obreht reference before I typed mine. Great minds and all that! In response to your question, I think that so much of folklore and myth is about shapeshifting and fluidity; about metamorphosizing from one state to another (or perhaps, residing somewhere in between the two). This is something I love about Daisy Johnsons books (her short stories Fen or her novel Everything Under), and it’s something I definitely explore in The Butchers’ Blessing, both in terms of gender and sexuality. Regarding the character you’re talking about, he doesn’t necessarily see himself in the legends of his homeland, so he turns to the Greeks, immersing himself in their ancient tales instead. Again, this adds another layer to the novel, and shows how everyone finds their logic – or at least, searches for it, desperately – in a different place, a different set of narratives. I just hope his dreams of escape really do come to pass…
MD/MT: Where did the Butchers come from? What were they originally, if the idea of the Butchers have changed at all as the novel evolved, and what do you feel was necessary to change or reevaluate when shaping the book?
RG: This is a great question, mainly because I’ve been fascinated with how much the Butchers’ source has been discussed – or, more specifically, the question of whether or not they are made up. I like to think of them less as an invention as an amalgamation – when I was researching the novel, I came across so many different traditions and superstitions connected to cattle, most of which I had never heard of before. So I ended up pulling them all together to create this group of eight men known as the Butchers who wander the countryside enacting these ancient practices.
I only discovered really late into the editorial process that my British editor fully thought the Butchers were ‘real’. I suggested tweaking something about them and he looked at me horrified, like ‘you can’t do that.’ So then I explained; he was flabbergasted! But I think it raises all sorts of interesting questions about what is ‘real’ and what is ‘true’ – both in fiction and in folklore – and where we like to draw the line between.
One thing my editor did help me to reevaluate was just how key a role the gender stuff played in the novel – obviously I knew it was there (there was no doubt in my mind that this would have to be a group of eight men, not women), but I hadn’t fully thought through the implications of that, especially for the wives and children of the men involved. That was where some of the novel’s main tensions arose.
MD/MT: My own family is filled with lots of history and lore and curses. On top of being related to the family Tess is supposedly descended from in Thomas Hardy’s famous novel, I have researched that our first English ancestor (we are originally French, if I recall) was known only as the Demon. A lot of this, along with other things like mental illness, which is its own sort of curse, have shaped how I view my world. Do you ever feel like histories of the past, perhaps prophecies, curses, things we are expected to be or do actually shape or limit us as humans in our lives, whether on a daily basis or throughout our lives as a whole?
RG: Wow, that’s amazing! Tess & the Demon would be an excellent title for a family memoir… As mentioned above, I absolutely think these things shape us, for better and for worse. It’s all to do with self-fulfilling prophesies, and this exists on a super micro/intimate scale, and also on a societal one too. We are all raised on comments like ‘people in our family don’t do X’ or ‘little girls don’t do Y’ and so much of one’s life is spent trying to figure out which of those comments are helpful and which are a total hindrance (to put it mildly).
MD/MT: What books shaped you as you grew up, as you became a writer, and as you shaped this novel in general? What books do you feel influenced you the most and what book might The Butchers’ Blessing be in conversation with?
RG: In terms of this novel, the books of Evie Wyld and Sarah Hall were hugely influential. They are both British women who write these strange, dark, elegantly-structured novels steeped in a kind of gothic atmosphere, simmering with feminist rage (the same can also be said of Jesmyn Ward’s masterpieces). In terms of the book being in conversation, I was also hugely conscious of John McGahern and other (male) giants who make up the traditional (male) canon of Irish rural fiction. There is much to admire about these books, but also much to write back against (as showcased best, of course, by the inimitable Edna O’Brien).
MD/MT: What writers do you feel need more recognition, and which novel would you recommend to another writer, a reader, or anyone for any reason—perhaps it’s a favorite novel, or a novel you feel could change the way someone thinks. I always view books as the greatest gift, especially when a person is seriously taken into consideration and the gift giver provides a book they feel matches the recipient perfectly.
RG: I appreciate that I just mentioned her, and I also appreciate that she is hardly an unknown entity, but I really think we should all be shouting Evie Wyld’s name from the rooftops a whole lot more than we currently do. In terms of recent novels, again I know it won a huge award in 2019, but I am still struck by how few people have read Idaho by Emily Ruskovich. I think it is exceptional.
MD/MT: What do you want The Butchers’ Blessing to say to the world? When you look at what you’ve written, this beautiful novel you’ve likely slaved over, if a reader reads the book and enjoys it, what is one thing you hope the reader takes away after finishing the book?
RG: “Wow, you were right – the fact that I’m a vegetarian had zero impact on my enjoyment of this book.’ (I get asked that question an awful lot).
MD/MT: Tananarive Due said recently that in writing a horror novel, she could not write a character who didn’t want to survive, or want something, and actually be successful in writing a great novel or story. While The Butchers’ Blessing isn’t horror, which character do you think wanted something the most, and did you ever find it difficult to separate yourself from the characters and give them obstacles? So many authors I know have such a hard time putting their characters through any sort of hellish experience, which can be detrimental to writing in my opinion.
RG: Not at all, in fact, I sort of struggled with the opposite. As in, I never really thought of this book as weird or dark, partly because I am so in love with my characters that I didn’t really realise that some of the things they do may be considered weird or dark. So for example, I remember giving a really early draft to my husband to read, and he was like ‘do you really think it’s a good idea to have Úna trying to slit a mouse’s throat the very first time we encounter her?’ I was horrified slash mildly offended on her behalf, but I suppose I took his point. Now you get to hang out with her for a little bit first – you get to see the things that have shaped her and the way she is treated by the bullies in school – before she gets out her knife.
MD/MT: You vacillate between POVs so swiftly and cleverly it’s perhaps best done since Egan’s GOON SQUAD. Can you talk to us about the energy and thought put into ordering the timelines and speakers, the voices, and the reasons why the people who spoke were given voices?
What a compliment! Honestly I am obsessed with novels written from multiple perspectives; I love their structural intricacies and also the narrative pleasures that they offer – this can be in terms of the inherent mystery of how on earth the different characters are going to link up, or it can simply be the joy of getting to see the same scenario or relationship from totally different points of view. For the record, despite what some people think, I also find novels like this much easier to write – you get to stay with one character while they’re doing something interesting, and then as soon as it starts to get dull, you can switch. I am terrified by the prospect of just sticking with one character for a whole novel – I have no idea how you would keep things interesting for that long.In terms of choosing which voices would be heard in this novel, it was very important to me from the start that, even though the Butchers were the central premise, I wasn’t actually interested in following them on their travels – I was far more interested in the women and children they left behind. So that’s the reason behind Úna and Grá, a mother and daughter combo, then on the other side you have Davey and Fionn, a father and son combo, which offered a lovely symmetry. The book is so concerned with family and generations and what gets passed down, for better or worse, so the structure mirrors that.
MD/MT: It’s strange how when we were younger, we experienced this Mad Cow Disease issue that scared so many people, although not on the level of this pandemic. At the same time, or around the same time, we see Ireland in this novel and it’s so different, so far away as if we’re centuries away, frozen in our own separate times, like either our present existed or theirs did, but not possibly at the same time. Can you talk to us about the feel you wanted when writing the novel, and how Mad Cow Disease and the myth itself came together, quickly or in a slow evolution?
It’s funny trying to trace a novel back to a precise origin story, but I think for me there were two starting points that ultimately came together. The first, as I mentioned, was a longstanding interest in Irish folklore and the tension between different belief systems in a country that is so often considered just strictly Catholic. The second was a road trip with a friend of mine whose father used to be a farm animal vet. To pass the time, he started telling me all these crazy stories of things his dad had seen over the years, especially around the Mad Cow period. I found them fascinating and also couldn’t believe some of the stuff that was going on during my lifetime to which I had been totally oblivious. So I started to do some research, and then my ideas began to bleed (pun intended) into one another, until eventually The Butchers’ Blessing was born.
MD/MT: When I think of children killing animals, I remember specials on children who torture animals and kill them and turn out to be serial killers later on in life. They’re demented, strange, our abject in so many ways. But I read this novel and I am also transported to where I was supposed to go hunting for game, and when I killed my first deer at 7—something I did not ever enjoy doing—those with me tried to smear deer blood on my face. How do we create rituals to enable children to grow and mature or turn into something monstrous, and do you feel you’re addressing this in The Butchers’ Blessing? In a way, people experience the allure and repulsion of the Butchers, some separately and some simultaneously.
Jesus, that is an intense experience for a 7 year old. This might not be a direct answer to your question, but I think of all the descriptions of this novel (literary thriller, family saga, feminist folklore) the one I like most is ‘coming of age’ story. Because I think that Úna’s coming of age is at the heart of the book, but so is the country’s coming of age, or at least, its fumbled attempts to transition from one thing to another (and here I think your phrase ‘mature or turn into something monstrous’ applies beautifully).
MD/MT: Do you have any books coming out next? Anything to follow this brilliant novel? I know I would love to hear about it, as well as likely all of our readers.
So, further to my confession that single person narratives scare the crap out of me, I decided for the next book to set myself the challenge of doing exactly that. However, to circumnavigate the task a little (it’s nuts the tricks we play on ourselves as writers), I am now writing a novel with just one POV, but which jumps back and forth a lot through time. So it centres on this woman called Emily who is a sculptor and whose mother disappeared when she was a teenager, and who is now trying to decide whether or not to become a mother herself. There’s lots of stuff about art and womanhood and mother-daughter relationships; there’s also stuff about real life artists braided through as well. The working title is Umbilical and I’ve only a written a very rough first draft, but I’m enjoying it, and for now, that is enough.
MD/MT: Thank you so much for joining us to talk about your brilliant book, The Butchers’ Blessing. From start to finish, it’s this brilliant novel, a literary thriller of sorts, a saga and a coming-of-age tale, a novel about love and family and what we own of ourselves and what we have no control over. Thank you for allowing us to pick your brain and we hope you’ll come back from time to time. Please feel free to comment on anything else, and once again, it was such a pleasure reading this book and having the opportunity to experience what will likely become a sensational book read
Matthew Turbeville: Hi Caroline! I’ve been wanting to interview you for a while. I’ve read your previous books and loved them, but Providence seems like a whole new step in your journey as a writer completely. Can you tell me what initially sparked the idea for this book, and how or why you decided to pursue this novel?
Caroline Kepnes: Hi Matthew! I’m so happy to hear that. When I stated Providence, I was coming off two Joe Goldberg books that are all about the horrors of mankind, the danger of phones, books inspired by my fear that Man + technology + ego = oh SHIT! Providence shares the same theme, but it’s different in scope and atmosphere. I chose New England because I was nostalgic for my pre-internet youth. The library was closed at night, so even if there was a book you were dying to read…you had to wait. Technology lifted those boundaries and that change is still wild to me, this 24/7 access to information. By the second draft of Providence it was like okay, these characters are suffering from isolation and a sense of disconnect at a time when we are constantly reminded that we are connected. They would all possibly be better off if they let go of this person they can’t stop thinking about, but it’s not so easy. And that’s messy appealing territory to me. It’s like okay you can delete Facebook but it’s still there, which is horrifying. Yet we go through this pandemic and we’re all like socially distancing like Jon and Chloe and this is no way to live, as we know, and well…I’m happy I wrote that book when I did, when I wanted to because now it’s like…most of us are living like Jon Bronson. And that would for sure change my approach to the story.
MT: I really loved the book. It was refreshingly new and flawlessly written. You write from several different viewpoints here, so one of the first things I want to know, as a writer myself, is how you managed to tackle each of these voices and implement them in the best possible way? I’ve always admired people who write books from different first person POVs, and this certainly did not disappoint.
CK: For me, what makes the Joe books the Joe books is that you are completely restricted to his point of view. There is no escape. It’s as much about that dominating, sole perspective as it as about the story, you know? I want the reader to be stuck in his head and therefore on his side. With Providence, the first thing that came to me was Jon’s voice. Loud and clear and I was so passionate, couldn’t stop writing. But during the first draft, I was like Chloe’s voice came on strong. And the same way Joe had to be just Joe, I knew there could be no Jon without Chloe, without Eggs. I was like, It’s Martyr Wars! Eggs is al ‘Hey you kids have youth on your side. Let me tell you what it’s like to be old!’ I was nervous about this because it was so different from the You structure, but I really do believe that you gotta do the thing that scares you, that keeps you up at night.
MT: What was the hardest part about writing this book? What was the easiest? How many drafts did you go through with Providence, and what was your writing process like?
CK: The hardest part was that I wrote like 150 pages of Jon’s dreams and memories and I can be very stubborn. I did not want to cut those pages. So, I didn’t. I started writing Chloe. And as I was bringing her to life, I realized that I was clinging to the Jon pages because they were a place holder for things I wanted to show from Chloe’s point of view. You do therapy on your book, you know? I was in it with that book. I think I wrote six drafts. The easiest part was Chloe, a breath of fresh air, that and the fact that there are few things I hate more than an indoor fucking pool! And I loved writing about the city. I went to Brown and it was home for me. The Providence scenes were fun, embracing my cringey nostalgia for the slim, intimidating pages of the Dunwich Horror that stumped me in this college horror class where I was more interested in learning all the horrific stuff about Lovecraft. Another hard part was the science. I did so much research and went down so many rabbit holes about photosynthesis and I tried to squeeze it all in and it was like no. None of this goes in the book. This is not that kind of story. This is a sad love story about people who are moving from denial to acceptance of some terrible things that are out of their control. The writing process was emotional. I was so hyper-sensitive that things when I went out. The first time I heard that Hippocampus song “Way It Goes” I was at a concert. I got chills like, that achy and gut busting wailing, that’s my book!
MT: You’ve created books in the past—specifically You and its sequel—that are unlike nearly anything published in the literary industry today. What books influenced you with your previous two books, and what books have influenced Providence? Are there certain authors or books you return to constantly?
CK: Stephen King always and forever because of that intense joy you can feel in his storytelling, like he is so fucking happy to be getting this down on the page for you. That’s a very specific power that has always meant a lot to me. Whatever you want to call it, childlike joy, heat, urgency, it’s that crackling sensation that the person behind these words is locked in. Fucking love that feeling! I always go back to The Street by Ann Petry. Oh that book makes me feel alive and it’s this powerful read-me-now-or-else kind of intensity to her style. I love Anne Tyler, Joyce Carol Oates, Edwidge Danticat, Elizabeth Strout and Phillip Roth. I read Prince lyrics a lot too. And I open random pages of Brian Hiatt’s book about Bruce Springsteen songs. I like lyrics, tiny stories. It helps me figure out the drive in my long stuff to look at tiny divine things. I’m inspired and influenced by things that feel divine, where I catch myself reading something special—the screen door in “Where Are You Going, Where Have You Been?” or the drowning in Flesh & Blood or the Whitney Houston part of American Psycho or the racing the blossoming peach passage in Beloved--and I know that I will remember this forever, this work that is so purely from this on person expressing themselves in this powerful specifically them-ish way, is a part of my brain now. I think about that experience and I write my stuff until it feels like it’s a tiny bit closer to maybe just maybe being that way for someone else.
MT: Did you ever find yourself surprised to be writing a book like Providence? How long did it take to write, and did you ever question yourself along the way? What was your favorite part about writing this book, and what was your least favorite part in writing this novel? Was there a particular character’s voice you liked or disliked?
CK: I wasn’t surprised because I’ve always liked to get weird. I wrote a lot of short stories with kooky, unexplainable phenomena, like this one about a children’s librarian who has a freak medical condition where she starts talking about of her vagina. A very short story! I love the weird and I bet a lot of writers would say you do the weird thing that you can’t stop thinking about or else it gnaws at you. I had been doing research, I was in the early thinking stages kind of circling Providence and Nashua, thinking about why Lovecraft was so fucked up, about why Providence is so cool, why New England and horror just go together, but I didn’t have the story. Then one day I was driving into a mall that I hate in LA and I almost had a car accident. I shrieked, it was so close and it was my fault. I was shaking. I heard Jon Bronson in my head and I didn’t go in the mall. I turned around and drove home and wrote the first chapter. In the beginning I also wrote Magnus’s side of the story. The psychopath kidnapper had become my comfort zone, but over two years it was like no, Providence doesn’t need or want his perspective. I have never written a book where I wasn’t questioning myself. Every writing day I go from the high to the low over and over. Climbing out of that low is so often where I figure out how to fix things. As for favorites…I love Crane Coma Florie. And Eggs. There’s a lot of my dad in him, so that was cathartic. And it makes me happy that American Splendor and the Kiwis with the Grown Ups 2 podcast and Hippocampus all made the final draft. I’m really bitchy with myself about the pop culture stuff. It has to prove that it belongs in there or it’s gone!
MT: What do you think, as a genre, of supernatural mysteries and thrillers? What are your favorite examples of these books and what books or authors would you refer new readers to, or writers who are trying to attempt similar books?
CK: I think it’s because of the way my family was, we had every kind of book everywhere all over the house, but I think of the author as the genre, you know? People who read my books can find lists of all the books and authors I mention in my books. Read em! Paul Tremblay and Kim Liggett are two authors who know when to slow down, when to fly. There’s specific magic in the way tense moments play out in their books. Gabino Iglesias draws pictures with words. Wendy Walker is your very smart, intuitive best friend who’s telling you a story and she knows how your mind works. Bassey Ikpi’s memoir is thrilling and supernatural with language and it makes me want her first book of fiction. Alma Katsu’s middle name is atmosphere. Perfect Days by Raphael Montes is so fucking out there that I was a little scared to meet him in person but like most people who write sick stuff, he’s grounded and sweet. Read The Natural Way of Things by Charlotte Wood and let it blow your mind out of ooh…the water! The North Water by Ian MaGuire is a this-is-how-you-write-action book, bleak and meaty. C.J. Tudor books make me feel enthralled in that late night supposed to be sleeping kind of way. The Iain Reid book you know is I’m Thinking of Ending Things and it’s dizzying, terrific. But did you read his nonfiction book The Truth about Luck? It’s about his friendship with his grandmother and it’s exciting to know that these books came from the same brain. I say when you love an author, read all of their stuff and the stuff they go on about too.
MT: How have you felt being praised by not only critics, but by Stephen King himself? When was the moment you knew “I’ve made it”? How has that changed your life and affected the way you not only work, but view the world?
CK: I get to use the word amazing because it is truly amazing to know that Stephen King read your book and was pretty rocked by it. I first had that “made it” feeling when I found out You was being published and then when people started reading it, it was this heavy, slowly building wave of whoa…people are really reacting to Joe. It’s changed my life in the sense that it’s really fucking awesome to have an audience, to have people a few mils away from my home making a TV show based on my books. That’s wild. And then I open my Word document and go back to writing because the one thing that doesn’t change, there is no way around it. You don’t get to be like yay I wrote unless you write. I have an addictive personality and I make sure that the addition continues to be the writing itself. Getting to make stuff up every day for a living is a dream and I’m grateful that I didn’t give up.
MT: Many people view this as a sort of crime novel. I would love to hear who your favorite crime writers are working in the business today—especially women crime writers, as the genre becomes more and more of a woman-centric business.
CK: I just found an advance edition of Laura Lippman’s first book and I read the promotional copy and it was like yes, publisher, you were right to be so excited. You knew what was coming! That jacket copy felt prescient for women in the business of telling tight, insightful stories of violence. There are so many fabulous books out there right now and last year in pre-Covid times, I got to go to Bloody Scotland and meet Lucy Foley and Shari Lapena and Ruth Ware and Sarah Vaughn and many others I admire. And two brilliant women writing great dark things to watch: Ani Katz’s debut A Good Man is phenomenal and taut. I can’t wait to see what she does next. Lindsey Cameron’s Just One Look is coming in 2021. My kind of book. Sick, funny, brilliant with Mike White vibes and just fucking fun.
MT: How do you feel about women in the literary world? To me, it seems like women are progressing forward, if not wholly taking over the industry at this point. More and more women and other marginalized people are getting their chance at grabbing their own piece of the pie or place at the table. How do you feel marginalized people are affecting the literary community in general, and what do you think things will be like in the years to come?
CK: There is a long, embarrassingly overdue sense of change with marginalized people flourishing while certain others who have long been at the table know that they can’t get away with that thing they said or did a few years ago. And that’s good. That’s progress. But it’s also like how are we fucking there yet? I went to high school and college in the 90s. Everyone I knew and respected was reading things written by people who were “different” because of fucking course we wanted to learn about the world. Otherwise, you’re saying only you and people just like you in certain surfacey ways are legitimate and relatable and how gross and sad would that be? What a boring way to live. I’m happy for kids in the “margins” who want to write and be in the business of storytelling because right now, if I were in their shoes, looking at authors shining in the hellscape of 2020, I’d be like wow, that table is looking more reflective of the tables in my daily life all the time and if she can do that, I can do that. So that’s a big win for the future.
MT: You have a very large fan base, and I’m aware that’s an extreme understatement. What has been your favorite reaction to your books, with fans either speaking to you in person, or writing in private? How do you feel you are influencing fans and writers alike, and what would you like to see come from your writing in an effort to change our country or even the world?
CK: I truly don’t know where to begin. Even before my book was published, when there were advanced copies floating around, I was so excited that whatever it was about the book…it was reaching people in this way that made them feel very verbal and enlivened and how cool is that? I buckled down and wrote a book to bring myself and my family back to life after some terrible stuff, and that’s the magic of writing, when the thing that made you feel good as a writer translates into the reader. Yay! I get these notes from people who tell me about why this writing speaks to them, means something to them, got them out of some kind of emotional jam and that’s the best. I love it. I’ve heard from people in recovery, people in abusive relationships. And then I hear from people are into reading because they want to write and my stuff entertained them and now they’re finally writing the thing because they feel empowered. And then there are the people who haven’t read in ages and they could get into something I wrote and now they are back on books and just yayayay you know? I love that electricity. I miss book events. I miss casual conversation because I love those interactions. I miss a balanced life and I can’t wait when being together to celebrate a new book is a thing we can do again. A change I’d like to see…I would love for my books to make people excited about books in general. And also, writing these books makes me super self-aware of the way I am around people, and what I might not know about people I’m interacting with. So I hope that it’s that way for readers, that when they close one of my books and go back into the world with all the real people, they are a little more hyper sensitive to the mysteries of humans.
MT: Speaking of our country, which of your books might you recommend to the current president of the United States of America? What book by another writer—or story, poem or poetry collection, essay or essay collection, etc—might you recommend to the president, and could you explain why? What do you think he would learn from these pieces?
CK: I think a lot of people would agree when I say that we are done trying to reach that man. Next!
MT: What is a dream book you’ve always wanted to write, or have you already written it? Is there a certain genre or book you’d like to make, and are there any genres you’d like to mix together? Toni Morrison, among other luminaries, has said write the book you want to read. What book do you want to read, and will you write it?
CK: That Tonti Morrison quote is so important. You was not the first book I ever wrote, but it was the first time I was like fuck it, no more trying to sound like an “author”. I was always me in my short stories, but I had the novel on a pedestal and I got self-conscious when I thought about a novel. And then with You it was like fuck it. That quote about writing originally, that advice I’m always drunk raving about, it’s time to put that into daily practice and be totally engaged and expressive in and yes, sometimes, embarrassed about what I am doing right now. Now, it’s a daily wellness check with the work in progress. I make sure that I am writing the book I want to read as I write it, and I am happy to say that right now, that book is You 4.
MT: How does the revising process work for you? In addition, how did obtaining an agent and working through the literary industry turn out for you? Have you found yourself traveling down an easy road to publication and later praise and much success, or has it been a long battle hard-won?
CK: I feel like you can’t do this if you don’t learn to enjoy rejection in all its forms and use it to grow and get better. I write every book a few times, and often my editor will do that brilliant thing of knowing what worked in the first draft, what I need to pull out of the second draft and so on. It’s like you make one part of it sing and then you want everything to sing like that but sometimes you get carried away and try too hard. And that’s where editors are gold. I have always had the same approach since I was a teenager. I put my head down and work as hard as I can and write and write and write. And then I lift my head up and reach out to everyone I’ve ever known like CAN YOU READ THIS RIGHT NOW. I’m not exaggerating. In high school I entered the Sassy Magazine fiction contest. I was obsessed with the magazine and I called 411 to get the phone number and cold called an editor to interview her for my high school newspaper…and ask if she read my short story yet. Such a little asshole, yes, but I feel like you got to have some Tracy Flick in you to get somewhere. I got an honorable mention and a typewriter in that contest, but the real prize of course was the positive reinforcement for light stalking AKA networking, journalizing. Years later in LA, I was a journalist and after the interview I would shut off my tape recorder and be like Hey do you want to read my script? Eventually I got an agent through a friend of a friend. It can’t be said enough: If you want to be a writer you have to write a lot. And I heard the word no a lot. Most people do. That’s where it’s always good to be in this because you love doing it more than you love hearing the word yes.
MT: What is the most difficult thing about writing, whether in the actual creative process or editing, or what might follow?
CK: Not writing is the most difficult and necessary part of writing. When I’m full steam ahead and up a 7 like super in it and productive and then it’s 1 PM and there are so many hours ahead and the fucking sun shines and I feel too only half on the planet to drive and my brain is buzzing and I go be a human but soon, no matter how good things are going, the panic comes that tomorrow morning I will wake up and not be able to do what I did in the morning and the whole not writing part of the day can be a bit long and gritty especially in these solitary times. Fun cycle!
MT: What’s next for you, Caroline? You’ve got a big TV show in the works with a trailer already set up, and you seem to be churning out books quite quickly. What is the next book (or otherwise) you’re planning on writing?
CK: It is so nice to hear you say that because it doesn’t feel quick to me, you know? So, thank you! I am just tweaking my first draft of the fourth You book. It’s due this month and then I’ll take a breath and go back to a book I put aside a couple years ago. It was a luxury for me that I got to put that draft in a drawer and let it sit there while I worked on the books. It’s really hitting me that wow, I wrote a couple drafts of that book and now we get to have a reunion!
MT: Thank you so much for speaking to me, Caroline. It has been an immense pleasure not only to be able to ask you questions, but to read and become an enormous fan of your books. Please leave us with any thoughts, comments, suggestions, remarks, or otherwise. We love hearing from you, and look forward to hearing anything you might have to say in the future.
CK: Thank you so much, Matthew. It’s a pleasure to talk with a fellow writer. I thank you so much for reading my work and having such interesting things to say. I can’t wait to talk again, which is more motivation to keep writing, so thanks for that too!
Matthew Turbeville: Micah, I love love love These Violent Delights and really think it’s so thought provoking and really opens up a lot of room for discourse, discussion, and understanding. Can you talk to me about the concept and development of the novel? What was your writing, rewriting, and revision process like?
Micah Nemerever: Thank you! I’m so happy to talk with you.
I’d been playing with similar plot ideas to These Violent Delights for a very long time, since I was a teenager myself, but nothing quite gelled until I conceived these particular characters in about 2011. I spent a lot of time doing written doodles about them, and I thought I had a handle on how to turn them into a book—and then I started writing my MA thesis concurrently and I learned that no, actually, I had no idea how longform writing worked. Then I started drafting the book in earnest in 2013, still with only a hazy idea of what I was doing. I had to teach myself how to write a novel by trial and error. The first draft took three years, and then I rewrote it almost from scratch, which took another year and a half. It was a long, long process, and I’ve had these characters in my head for so long that I’m a little bereft to be done with their story. I was obsessed with them. I could never have finished the book if I wasn’t.
I actually found the second draft to be more enjoyable than the first, even though it was more technically difficult. (Or maybe that wasthe reason. I do like a challenge.) I had to get the first draft out to see what shape the book ought to be—partly by looking at a lot of the first draft and going “god, nope, the opposite of this.” Analyzing the first draft also helped me pick out the plot and character threads that didn’t quite integrate with each other at that point, but that had the potential to do so. The second draft was an incredibly fulfilling experience, because I got to take this absolutely chaotic first draft and impose order on it. Which sounds a little megalomaniacal now that I say it.
MT: This book is clearly influenced in part by books like Donna Tartt’s The Secret History, but I’d love to hear about your own influences, what books really have spoken to you over the years, led you to These Violent Delights, and which books and authors you feel are undervalued and need to be read more.
MN: I’ve realized that my influences run a little older, which feels really appropriate for TVD, since it’s sort of an old-fashioned book in many ways. Patricia Highsmith was a massive influence, both on the pervasive fraught queerness and on the way I structured and paced the plot. I spent a lot of time thinking about The Picture of Dorian Gray—that intersection of gay desire and erudite aesthetics and moral crisis. Brideshead Revisited is definitely threaded through TVD in many ways, as is Wuthering Heights. Shirley Jackson’s Hangsaman influenced me a lot during revisions in particular—it may be my all-time favorite book, and ever since I read it I’ve been yelling at basically everyone I know that they need to read it too. (Speaking of which, you should read Hangsaman, it’s queer and beautiful and devastating.)
Then there are the nonfiction influences, because I went to grad school, god help me. Nietzsche, Foucault, even some of the psychoanalytic theory around dialectical identity formation. And at one point in TVD Julian tells Paul that “Arendt is mandatory,” which feels more true every day.
MT: The book deals so heavily with issues of homosexuality and culture years ago and now. I love when the protagonist thinks about touching the objects belonging to a homophobic person, somehow tainting them out of spite. I have always felt the same way—like I’m somehow tainted by being gay. What do you think this book says about homosexuality, queerness, and how it fits in the crime canon?
MN: I really enjoyed working out Paul’s acceptance of being gay—it’s a process he never quite completes, but he shifts away from his insecurity and resigned self-disgust early in the book, and ends up becoming sort of defiant. He’s so alienated from the outside world already, and I think his eventual resentment of heteronormativity is a natural extension of that. I especially love that scene you mentioned, because it’s so rooted in the defiance he’s embraced. He’s this queer working-class Jewish kid surrounded by rich WASPs at an awful party, and he knows they think his very presence contaminates them, so he just runs with it. Adopting this fuck-you attitude toward heteronormativity is one of the positive developments Paul’s character undergoes in the book—and god knows most of his character development doesn’t take him in good directions. I’m proud of him for growing in this way, especially in a time when homophobia was even more prevalent than it is now.
Julian is an interesting case because he’s one of those gay kids who never really had the option of being in the closet, even in an environment with lower awareness that homosexuality even exists. Everyone around him kind of knows, even if they don’t know they know. He moves through the world as an obvious outsider, and he has to maintain his physical safety by playing it off as enigmatic superiority rather than letting people identify his queerness as the thing that makes him different. I think he’s defiant from the start, because he has to be.
MT: There’s a sort of love story in the novel—and I wonder, looking at the relationship between the two main characters, if you think love or obsession plays more into crime fiction and in this novel, or if it’s more complicated than that?
MN: I think for Paul and Julian, love is inextricable from obsession. Paul in particular puts Julian on a pedestal, and aspires to become him to the point of wanting to merge with him—there’s a pattern of imagery in his internal monologue about devouring him, dissecting him, so that he can understand him perfectly enough to absorb him. For various reasons at this point in his life he doesn’t know how to love without grasping too tight. And I think Julian enjoys the fact that Paul is obsessed with him. When I was planning the book, one of the things I wanted most was to tell a story about sincere love. Their deepest flaws feed off each other, but so do their best traits. But the boys are both seventeen in the worst way—and Paul is coping with a lot of recent severe trauma that has affected his ability to trust anyone, much less someone as mercurial as Julian is. So it’s a greedy, selfish love.
MT: Going back to issues with homosexuality, how do you think queerness adds to issues of desperation and obsession, and do you think this can be remedied in society and literature? Do you think this is a part of why and how the novel plays out?
MN: Oh, absolutely—especially for Paul. He’s at the age where he’s desperately trying to form an identity for himself, and he can’t see any healthy archetypes that he can model himself after. He has all these self-improvement projects that he uses to try and shape himself into a functional person, but he has no clear vision of what that would look like. It’s this aimless, desperate grasping for something, anything, he can use to anchor himself as a person. Julian is the first queer person he’s ever knowingly met, and he’s so adrift that he clings to Julian’s model of personhood with both hands.
It’s obviously an ongoing problem in real life, even now, and I don’t think the solution is as simple as offering queer role models. Paul would be alienated from a “role model” for the same reason I was as a teen—a positive role model might endure external hardships, but it doesn’t give you a way to account for internal weakness and vulnerability, especially the kind of anger you feel as a lonely teenager. Paul is drawn to Julian not just for his apparent wholeness and confidence as a queer person, but also for his disdain for mainstream society. Shaping himself after Julian is a way to accept his own anger—the problem in this particular case is that Julian doesn’t lead that anger in a healthy direction, and their relationship encourages Paul to become more and more angry rather than try to process it.
MT: What was your biggest struggle writing this novel, and what did you delight most in writing this novel?
MN: The thing I struggled with most was pacing. I had no instinct for it when I started writing. I had to develop an instinct through close study of books whose pacing I admired, and a lot of absolutely ruthless culling of segments of TVD that didn’t advance plot or character enough to justify their presence. I don’t believe in universal writing advice, and I love a lot of books with unconventional or even nonexistent pacing—but for me, and for the kind of writing I do, I have to maintain pacing by deciding that every single scene needs to either move the plot forward or reveal crucial character development. (Both, ideally.) There were so many scenes in the first draft that I loved for various reasons, but they didn’t meet the parameters, so they ended up on the guillotine. Especially for a fairly long book, there was no way to maintain the necessary mood and tension without being merciless with myself. I think it gave me a much better sense of pacing for my future projects, but it was hard-won, and I had to be truly terrible at it for a long time.
The things I enjoyed writing most were arguments and confrontations, which is one reason pacing was so crucial. I love writing moments where the tension snaps and everything finally boils over. Those are some of my favorite scenes in the book, and for different reasons all of them were exhilarating and shattering to write. But they are absolutely reliant on the rest of the book maintaining its momentum, and I had to kill a lot of darlings to ensure that those key scenes could be the payoff moments they deserved to be.
MT: In your own words, why do you think These Violent Delights had to be written? What do you hope readers take away from this novel?
MN: Honestly, so much of the reason TVD was written was that I was using it to process the memory of my own teenage anger. Especially how guilty and afraid I was about feeling anger at all—because I grew up in the Columbine generation, hearing from all angles that being angry or misanthropic or bitter about bullying made you a physical threat to the people around you. I could never understand the mass-shooter kind of violence, even at my angriest. But I still believed that my feeling rage at all was dangerous somehow, because society told me it was, and I was obsessed with the fear that under the right circumstances I too might become violent.
The protagonists of TVD have motives that my adolescent self would actually have understood—I felt love with the same gut-deep intensity that I felt anger, and in some ways it felt just as dangerous. Paul and Julian represent a kind of violence I feared I was capable of (though now I don’t think that I really was). Writing TVD was a way of processing those fears in retrospect, through these two characters that I came to love deeply and view with intense compassion. What they drive each other to do is monstrous, obviously—but I love them, in a way I was never capable of loving myself as a teenager, and writing the book helped me look back on my younger self with more empathy than I did before.
Writing the book was a cathartic and very personal experience, and until pretty late in the game I didn’t think it had much chance of being published at all. But it has turned out to resonate with readers who experienced similar anger or similar toxic relationships, and this is so touching and humbling that I can’t begin to articulate how it makes me feel. I hope the book can provide some readers with a similar catharsis to the kind I experienced while writing it. I hope they come away loving the characters as much as I do, even though what they do is unforgivable.
MT: Beyond college being a place of self-discovery, of freedom, what about the campus setting and the college life allows for crime to occur?
MN: For Paul and Julian, at least, I think college offers a rarefied environment that turns tangible moral reckonings into abstract theory—an opportunity to be performatively intellectual. The boys do have different levels of understanding about the degree to which moral theory affects the real world; Paul is attuned to systemic injustice in a way Julian has never had to be. But there are a lot of other ethical thought exercises that follow them home from the lecture hall without ever becoming quite real to them, and a lot of the decisions they make are rooted in theory rather than in real-world consequences. And of course they are both privileged to attend college at all, especially at a point in history where this wasn’t yet just the expected thing to do after high school—I think a lot of campus crime novels, this one included, are suffused with that privilege and the sense of intellectual superiority it can impart.
MT: Was this book a reflection on any other experiences in your own life? You don’t have to explain explicitly but I keep reading the book over and over and think, “God I’ve felt this” and “God, I’ve thought this,” and, “YES QUEEN I HAVE BEEN THERE.” Is there anything you’d like to talk about how reality might affect creativity?
MN: There’s definitely a lot of lived experience in there. I was, shall we say, a very specific kind of teenager—there’s actually a lot of my adolescent self in both the boys (Paul’s misanthropy and insecurity, Julian’s bitter pretentiousness). And I think a lot of queer people had a formative young adult relationship where they yearned to become the other person as much as they desired them. You just want to merge with them, maybe eat them a little bit. It’s a raw vulnerability that opens you up to an incredible amount of pain. So much of being a young queer person is grasping for an identity in a world that pretends you don’t even exist, and it makes you so susceptible to a certain kind of toxic codependency, especially if the other person encourages your worst instincts.
I don’t want to let my younger self off the hook here. I think that as imbalanced as the power dynamics can be in this kind of relationship, there is culpability on both sides for what you choose to do to impress each other. The real-world consequences in my own situation were minimal, mostly just interpersonal fallout. But I know I brought out the worst in this other person, even though I idolized them. The situation gave me a glimpse of the worst parts of myself, a capacity to be cruel that I then worked hard to grow out of.
TVD is in many ways a reckoning with the messed-up kid I used to be. The book ramps up that teenage cruelty until it reaches this catastrophic intensity, a worst-case scenario of what a toxic romantic friendship can become. And I love the characters so deeply, despite the terrible things that they do, that writing the book gave me a lot of retrospective compassion both for my teenage self and for the other person in that relationship. We were both such a mess, and our worst qualities fed off each other. I’m glad we never killed a man, at least—small favors.
MT: Do you think the novel could have taken another direction? Do you think there could have been a different outcome or ending?
MN: It took me a long time to settle on the book’s ending, which is funny, because in retrospect it feels like the only possible outcome for these characters and the choices they make. I went through so many other ending ideas, and none of them felt quite right until I landed on this one. They all felt rushed, or pat, or like they didn’t develop the characters as much as they deserved. This is the only ending that felt right, and it’s honestly one of my favorite parts of the book.
MT: Heartbreak is a blazing fury of sorts, and I can imagine the disastrous and disturbing ways I could act under circumstances, as well as other people too. I can’t decide what kind of heartbreak would cause me to act the most violently, most catastrophically, but I am so interested in your thoughts on this issue.
MN: One of the things I always need to know about a character—and this was especially important to this book—is what they fear most on an emotional level. Especially if a character is going to have a fatal flaw, for me it has to be rooted in that deepest fear. Without getting too deep into plot details, both Paul and Julian have weaknesses that stem from their most profound fears, and it is this fundamental frailty that propels them toward violence. In TVD’s case, the question I asked myself was how each character could be hurt by the other in a way that would hit them on a primal level.
It’s trickier to be introspective about this, since self-analysis is so different from building an imaginary human being from scratch. But for me, I think, the most dangerous kind of heartbreak would be a loved one being disgusted by the vulnerability I had trusted them with, and using it against me out of contempt. This is highly specific for a reason, and the times I’ve experienced it were the times I felt most as if my anger would destroy something fundamental about me. A lot of people react similarly to romantic infidelity, or to different varieties of emotional abuse. What I fear most is being regarded with contempt by someone I trust. Everyone has a type of intimate betrayal that would hurt them more than any other, and I think those are the moments that introduce the most primal volatility.
MT: If you had to sit at a dinner table with four authors to talk about your novel (and maybe theirs too, but most specifically yours) who would you choose, and why would you choose them? Would you hope to learn from them, to teach them, to just engage in conversation? Living or dead!
MN: Oh gosh, I’m always so bad at this question because I’d also want the authors to like me personally. (This is why Patricia Highsmith is not invited, because she was notoriously cranky and I’d absolutely get on her nerves.)
I’ve always felt Oscar Wilde would be a fantastic dinner guest, though, and there’s definitely a bit of Dorian Gray running through TVD. Emily Brontë might be fun, because Heathcliff and Cathy were hugely formative to my interest in obsessive love stories—I know she’d probably glower at me suspiciously all through dinner, but I don’t think I’d take it too personally in that case. Shirley Jackson would be fabulous, mostly because I want to vibrate with emotions at her about Hangsaman. And I would love to talk with Donna Tartt about how class aspiration functions in her work—in The Secret History, certainly, but also in The Goldfinch. We have very different approaches to class dynamics, and my use of class in TVD was partly in conversation with hers, so it would be an interesting discussion.
MT: is there a new work in progress? How long do we have to wait before another great and brilliant book from you?
MN: I have a few things in development, and I’m looking forward to diving into them in earnest once all the (wonderful, terrifying) publication chaos dies down. One project started out as a novella but is turning into a short novel. It’s a queer love story between two troubled teenagers, though it otherwise doesn’t have much overlap with TVD—it’s sort of literary horror, set during the late Bush years, so there are a lot of themes around class and religion and internalized homophobia. And body horror, because that’s how I roll, apparently.
The other novel is going to be a beast. “Going to try to keep it under 700 pages,” that kind of beast. It’s set in the eighties and has a lot of thematic undercurrents around the AIDS epidemic and political paranoia, which feels increasingly more timely, unfortunately. It’s about an insular family of chess prodigies—it has a timeline of about a decade and an ensemble cast, so it’s got a lot going on. (The outline is four pages in Excel, god help me.) I’m really excited for this project, but it’s hugely ambitious, and I want to do something tighter and squirmier before I scale up in such a big way.
MT: Micah, thank you so much for letting me interview you. This book is going to shake the world. I sure hope so. And I hope you loved talking with us. Please leave us with any lingering thoughts, questions, ideas, input. I am so thankful to get to talk to you and I wish you the best with this book. It’s lightning.
MN: The pleasure in all mine. I’m so excited for the book to make its way into the world, and I’m so glad it resonated with you.
Matthew Turbeville: Hi, David. I think that I have always been fascinated with other cultures, other people (not necessarily of different races, but really anyone who isn’t like me), and I’m so happy that especially in the crime community we are beginning to spread out and people who aren’t white men are able to have a voice. Your voice is especially strong, riveting—I can’t get over your book. It’s an astounding tour de force that tackles so many issues so elegantly while also keeping us glued to the page, wondering what will happen to Virgil and the people around him. Can you tell me a little bit about your background with writing and how you got started as an author?
David Heska Wanbli Weiden: Well, I’m just so deeply honored by your words and your praise for Winter Counts. I’m thrilled that you liked Virgil and Marie’s story! As for my start in creative writing, I’ve always been obsessed by literature, even as a little kid. I grew up in a pretty impoverished family in a rough neighborhood in Denver, and we didn’t even have a library anywhere near us. But, we had a Bookmobile that came to my elementary school every Friday afternoon. I’d check out around eight or nine books, and tear through all of them that week before returning to get more the following Friday. I knew, even then, that I wanted to be a writer. But I didn’t have the framework or resources to understand how to do that, as neither of my parents graduated from college. Watching my family get torn apart due to a lack of money, I made the career choices that so many poor kids make—be cautious, get educated in a field that pays decently, don’t take risks. For me, that meant getting trained as a lawyer and then moving to teaching at a college. But, about ten years ago, I decided to go ahead and follow my dream, even if it was fifteen years too late. I enrolled in the MFA program at the Vermont College of Fine Arts, studied there for three semesters, and later transferred to the brand-new MFA program at the Institute of American Indian Arts in New Mexico. These schools gave me the tools that I needed to learn my craft, and I was fortunate to sign with a literary agent—the amazing Michelle Brower—during my last semester of my MFA program. Michelle was wonderful in helping me revise and shape Winter Counts and then finding the perfect home for it with Ecco/HarperCollins.
MT: What were the novels you read that were your truly formative novels? What novels do you feel shaped you and your writing and your writing style? What novels and novelists (and really all writers) do you read today and love and recommend to our readers?
DHWW: As a kid, I loved genre fiction immensely. Science fiction, crime, horror—anything that told a compelling story and kept me glued to the page. In college, I drifted away from genre work and began reading literary fiction exclusively: John Updike, Raymond Carver, John Cheever, Don DeLillo. I always loved Louise Erdrich’s books and have reread some of them five times or more (The Round House!) I should also note that I recently had the privilege to meet her and she’s one of the nicest and kindest people around, and I’m tremendously honored that she provided a blurb for Winter Counts. Anyway, the return to genre fiction for me came when I read Larry McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove. That book absolutely blew me away, and I realized that a writer could tell an amazing story while developing complex characters and exploring challenging themes. Today, we’re blessed with so many talented writers who combine a page-turning story with terrific prose, imagery, and characters. A few writers I’d recommend are Benjamin Percy, Attica Locke, Craig Johnson, C.J. Box, Lou Berney, Steph Cha, Brandon Hobson, Stephen Graham Jones, James A. McLaughlin, and T.C. Boyle. I’m lucky in that I’ve been able to meet a good number of those authors, and I can tell you that they are not only terrific writers, but great people as well.
MT: Why did you decide to write Winter Counts? It’s such an important novel in so many ways, a book that is so entertaining, but in many ways timeless, and I have to wonder when you decided, Yes, it is necessary for me to write this book now. Not when you had the idea, although feel free to elaborate on that too, but when you decided the book was necessary.
DHWW: Winter Counts was originally a short story that I wrote way back in 2011. I published it in the magazine Yellow Medicine Review in 2014, but the character of Virgil stayed with me. To be honest, I was somewhat scared at the idea of writing a whole novel based on these characters, but the idea just grew larger and larger in my head until I decided that it was time to expand the characters and the themes. Part of my decision to finally sit down and write the novel was the increasing amount of drug abuse occurring on the Rosebud Reservation. There are many, many houses on the reservation that are abandoned because they’ve been used as meth houses. I hope this book can shed some light on the broken criminal justice system on many reservations today as well as the scourge of narcotic addiction that’s destroying so many lives in Indian country.
MT: Were there any parts of the novel particularly hard to write about? I know some authors get particularly attached to their protagonists—I’m guilty to that—and it’s hard for us to make them suffer and provide obstacles for them to overcome (although somedays, when we’re pissed off, we’re ready to throw all the obstacles their way). How do you feel about Virgil, and how did you develop him as such a tough character with an amazing voice?
DHWW: Thank you for those kind words! I love the character Virgil, and the hardest part for me to write was his backstory—his tragedies and missteps. But I knew this was necessary to depict, so that he could move forward with his character arc. As for his voice, I did what so many writers do—like an actor, I tried to channel his worldview, his mannerisms, and his style into a distinctive cadence and perspective, and I hope I succeeded.
MT: I normally save this question for last, but do you have a work-in-progress currently, and will we see more of Virgil and his world? I really need to know this.
DHWW: Yes, I’m happy to share that there will be a sequel to Winter Counts, also published by Ecco. I have the broad outline of the story but am filling in the gaps right now. Stay tuned! Also in the works is a collection of essays on Native American issues. Although fiction is my first love, I really enjoy creative nonfiction as well, and I’ve published a few essays, most recently a piece—“Carlisle Longings”--in the literary magazine Shenandoah, which is about my grandmother’s time at the infamous Carlisle Indian School. I’ve also written a children’s book, Spotted Tail, and hope that I can write another one of those as well.
MT: I won’t ask big questions about the country or world, but what do you hope readers take away from the novel outside of an incredibly immersive reading experience? Why would you recommend the book to people outside of being entertaining?
DHWW: This is such a great question. Outside of (hopefully) being a page-turner, my desire is that readers will take away some knowledge about the shameful political situation on many reservations, where the federal authorities are refusing to prosecute a huge number of criminal cases, resulting in violent offenders being released with no punishment at all. And beyond that, I hope that readers learn about the incredible resiliency and character of the Sicangu Lakota people. Our nation is not often depicted in fiction, and I hope I’ve done justice in my portrayal, showing the humor, generosity, and spirit of the Burnt Thigh people.
MT: I’m queer, and when I was younger I read that—I believe—it was Michael Cunningham who said he didn’t want to be called a “gay writer” or “queer writer.” Do you think there’s a danger in being grouped into a certain type of author, or a certain group of authors, or do you think it’s effective and positive to be categorized this way? In my mind, there might be pros and cons.
DHWW: This is an interesting question, and I’m not sure that I completely fit in any one group. I know that I’m viewed as a Native writer by some, but I also get tagged as a crime writer and a children’s book author by others. And there are some folks who only know my academic writing and aren’t even aware that I write fiction. I don’t really mind any of these labels, as I use my experiences as an American Indian, lawyer, professor, and father to inform all of my work. I suppose the danger is that bookstores may not know where to shelve Winter Counts, a literary thriller set on the Rosebud Reservation. Should it go in the Native American, crime, or literary sections? My suspicion is that most will put it in crime, which is completely fine with me. Those are my people!
MT: I remember at one point you talk about Sioux vs Lakota, and to me it seems like so much about culture, the needs of a group of people, and the ways we relate to others can be lost in translation (especially when we don’t want to participate in learning about others). Do you think, in the novel, any of Virgil’s troubles relate directly to this idea of being lost in translation, or hearing what we (white people) want to hear? Did you ever feel pressured to write a novel not for you, but a book that white people would want to hear, like when Marie says “Sioux” instead of “Lakota”?
DHWW: Wow! I’m so thrilled you picked up on that. Virgil is an iyeska, which is a Lakota slur for half-breed. He exists in several different worlds but doesn’t always feel that he fits in anywhere. As a writer, I relate to this same dynamic, of course. I definitely struggled over how much context I should provide for non-Native readers, and whether our internal divisions and problems would be of interest to anyone who’s not Lakota. In the end, I decided that I would write as truthfully as I could about Native life while also being respectful and positive. I did make several decisions early on, such as the choice that my main character would not be an alcoholic, as I didn’t want to feed those stereotypes. In the novel, Virgil acknowledges past problems with liquor, but he doesn’t take a drink in the book.
MT: What or who do you feel is missing from the crime community, or literary community as a whole? What do you want to see written, and who do you feel needs to be heard more?
DHWW: I think it’s an amazing time for the crime fiction community. There are so many formerly marginalized voices that are now being heard. I’m a member of the group Crime Writers of Color, and it is filled with established and emerging writers who are telling stories in a new way and from new perspectives. And not just in crime, but there are wonderful new writers in various genres across the board, not to mention the explosion of talent in literary realism from new voices. I hope that this trend continues and becomes the new normal. As for what still needs to be heard, I’m hoping to read more crime fiction from emerging Native writers. There are nearly 600 Native nations in the United States, each with a different history and perspective, and I hope those unique stories get told.
MT: I ask this question a lot, but it’s often attributed to Toni Morrison, this quote about how you should write the novel you’ve always wanted to read but have never found. Do you feel you have written this novel, or do you feel it’s still to come?
DHWW: I’m a huge fan of character-driven crime fiction, and there haven’t been many of those written by Native authors or set on the Rosebud Reservation. So, I do feel that I wrote the book I set out to write, although it took me a while to get there. I’m happy with the way Winter Counts turned out, and I have a whole lot of people to thank for that. My agent Michelle Brower, my editors Zack Wagman and Helen Atsma, and all the folks who read early drafts, especially Ramona Ausubel, Ben Percy, Danya Kukafka, and my patient workshop colleagues at the Tin House Summer Workshop and the Voices of Our Nations conference. Of course, we’re always growing as writers, and I hope that I’ll be able to address some new issues and themes in my future work. For example, my young son Sasha was, sadly, present at a school shooting in May of 2019. He had to huddle in a closet and listen to gunfire just two classrooms away. Although he thankfully wasn’t injured, this was incredibly traumatic for my family, and I’m planning to write some nonfiction exploring this event.
MT: Was there ever a scene, a chapter, or an issue with the book that made you want to quit writing the book and move on to something else? What obstacles do you face as an author usually, whether it be creative, referring to the plot, an editing issue, or anything else?
DHWW: No, I never wanted to quit writing the book—it was a lot of fun! The toughest part of the entire process came near the end, when my editor at Ecco requested that I cut about 10,000 words from the manuscript. It was genuinely painful to lose entire scenes, but the book does read better now, so I’m grateful I was pushed in that way. And who knows, maybe I’ll be able to bring some of that material back. . .
MT: I’m really obsessed with your novel. I talk about it all the time, and I recommend it to everyone, and once I get more money, I’ll be preordering the book as gifts for holidays and birthdays for everyone. I want to thank you for letting me interview you. It’s such a privilege. Feel free to talk about any lingering thoughts, ideas, or anything else we didn’t cover but thank you so much again for the interview. I really am glad this book exists, and I’m glad you exist, and I can’t wait to read more from you.
DHWW: Thank you again for these great questions. I’m really appreciative that you read my words and that they resonated with you. We are lucky to have you in the crime fiction community!
Interview with Kelli Jo Ford
Matthew Turbeville: I’m so excited to get to talk with you about your novel, Crooked Hallelujah. First, what a brilliant title. Can you explain or hint at what the title means, and maybe how the book came to you, and briefly what you feel the book is about?
Kelli Jo Ford: Thank you so much, Matthew. I really appreciate you reading the book and giving me the chance to talk about it. The title was one of those things that just sort of came to me early on and always felt right. I was open to other titles, but none ever settled in my gut the way that this one did.
The book came about as a group of characters connected to a place that I couldn’t seem to stop writing about. I was writing stories, one after another, and they kept coming from the same town(s). Eventually it became clear that I was writing something with a larger narrative, and I decided to focus on this family of women, where they are from and where they end up. I think I was always interested in writing about place as much as people.
MT: Who are some of the authors and what are some of the books which helped shape you in your formative years? What are the books you feel have spoken to you recently, and are there any authors or novels you feel are overlooked or underappreciated and need to be more widely read? Feel free to give as many shout outs as you’d like!
KJF: As an undergrad at Loyola, Christopher Chambers directed my honors thesis. I’d never taken a class with him, but he kind of understood what I was trying to do right away. (I certainly didn’t at the time!) He gave me a wonderful list of books to read, a list of books that emphasized place, about people from rural areas, books totally changed who and what I thought literature was supposed to be about. I can’t even remember what all was on that list, in part because some of those books have become so engrained in my life. One book that I know came from Chris is The Stories of Breece D’J Pancake. That book was really influential. I studied those stories off and on for years and may not have ever come across it had it not been for a good teacher who took some time to see me.
I returned to Love Medicine again and again while writing Crooked Hallelujah. For me, that book is perfect in its form. I love the short story, probably first and foremost. But I also love the way that Erdrich wove together this epic tale of people and place, using beautifully rendered short stories as fiber.
I went back to Dylan Landis’s Normal People Don’t Live Like This, a linked collection, pretty often through the years. I loved the way she was able to enter the lives and minds of the girls she wrote about and capture their culture and city in doing so. I love that book, but I haven’t heard many people talking about it.
To be honest, I have really struggled to both read and write since February. The last books I read and couldn’t put down were Miriam Toews’ Women Talking, Lily King’s Writers & Lovers, and
Megan Giddings’ Lakewood. There’s so much going on right now, but 2020 is such an exciting year for fiction. Already, we’ve had extraordinary debut novels by Alexandra Chang, Z. Pam Zhang, and Megha Majumdar. Soon we’ll be graced with books like Winter Counts by David Heska Wanbli Weiden, Inheritors by Asako Serizawa, and Shruti Swamy’s A House Is a Body. I feel sure these books will find their readers. I’m definitely cheering for them.
MT: What is your writing process like—time of day, how you write (longhand, computer, etc), do you have anything necessary for a great writing experience and environment others may not anticipate or readily guess?
KJF: Before I became a mom, I wrote in long, obsessive stretches. I might not write for a while, then I’d sort of catch fire, and fit whatever I was working on into every available moment and many that weren’t available at all. I don’t have the time to work that way anymore, of course. And, honestly, I’m still learning how I write as a mom. I try to get up early and make that time sacred. But I don’t really sleep much now, so even if I get up early (easy if you’re already awake!), I find that I struggle to get much done. I guess I’m better in the afternoons, but that time is not really available to me. What I am saying is: I am having a hard time writing.
MT: Where do you think Native Americans currently stand in American literature? Sure, we have Sherman Alexie and Louise Erdrich, and they’re wonderful staples, but who do you think is shaping up to be the next great voice for Native Americans, and do you think room is even being made for the entry of new voices? Minorities can be silenced often even when stories, like your novel, are so essential and need to be told.
KJF: It seems like a few doors have opened to some extent, and some really great Native writers are getting an opportunity to publish books that reach a wide audience. It is a good thing that when I think of the list of folks I’d like to shout out, it gets so long that I know I’ll leave people out.
However, I don’t really feel equipped to say where Native Americans stand in literature. For one, that’s a really big question, and I’m not a scholar. And two, I’d refer people to the work that people like Erika T. Wurth is doing. Giants like David Treuer.
I don’t think any of us should have to carry the weight of being the next great literary voice for Native Americans! I hope Native writers have the opportunity to write the stories we are called to write and that those stories can stand (or fall) on their own as literature.
MT: You write through multiple points of view and you delve deep into the brains of these people, never sugarcoating anything. How hard was this, both structurally and emotionally?
KJF: Structurally, it was hard to figure out how to best tell the larger story of the book. I wasn’t always set on a chronological order. However, as I worked on revisions with my agent, it became clear (through no small amount of convincing on his part!) that chronological was the best way
to help orient readers in the multitude of voices and points of view. Emotionally, there were definitely sections that were tough. I had a hard time, for instance, during the early stories when Reney is witnessing violence. It took me a while to revise those and get them right as a result. Writing “Consider the Lilies” broke my heart more than once.
MT: What was the hardest part about writing this novel, and how long did it take you to complete it? I know most authors have a moment like this so I’ll just ask: was there ever a point where you thought you’d given up, and if so, what part of the book almost did you in?
KJF: The hardest parts were figuring out where the book started, which stories to include and cull, and how to order the stories. As for how long I worked on it, the short answer “is a long time!” The longer one is that it’s hard to say. As I sort of mentioned above, I didn’t realize I was writing a book and certainly not this book for quite some time. I would say I worked on what became the book for well over ten years. I really intentionally worked on this book for at least eight years.
I don’t think I ever seriously thought about giving up. There was at least one long stretch after grad school when I felt burned out by writing in general and wasn’t sure I understood how to approach it anymore. I took a long break, and eventually I found myself writing again.
MT: Which character were you most attached to, and upon finishing the book, which character did you miss the most, or anticipate missing the most? Do you ever feel authors can get too attached to their characters?
KJF: Interesting question! I was probably most attached to the Granny character, the child version of Reney, and Lula and Justine in every iteration. So…all of the main characters? I am not sure I am totally done with Justine and Reney, to be honest. And there was a version of the book that had a short short about the Granny character as a girl being picked up at an orphanage by a distant aunt. Though most days I am ready to move on from these characters, I wouldn’t be surprised if any of them come back and demand to be let out. I am sure that authors can get too attached to their characters and that I am certainly that author.
MT: What advice do you give to any writers who are struggling to make their names known in the writing community and become a part of this great world you’re contributing to? Are there any tips or words of advice you can give?
KJF: I’d probably give them the same advice I could use on any given day. Keep going. Don’t worry so much. Work hard and hold yourself to the highest of standards, but if you need to step away, let yourself. Have faith in yourself and whatever brought you to the work. Just try to write the very best thing you can. Spend time reading what inspires and challenges you. Spend time making your work the very best you can. Put your energy there, and allow the rest to fall into place.
MT: Are you writing anything new now? Is there a work-in-progress you can hint about? We’d love to hear—I’m already a big fan!
KJF: Thank you again, Matthew! You are very kind. I have an idea, lots of notes, and a rough start for a novel. But I’ve never really written something that arose from an idea. So in some sense, I feel like I am starting all over. Don’t people say that that’s what each book does, teach you how to write anew? Fingers crossed! But, in this world of spotty paychecks, no childcare, isolation from family, global pandemic, and righteous social uprisings, I am struggling to write at all. I want to and I believe I will, but we’re just kind of getting through each day as it comes.
MT: I want to thank you for letting me interview you, and everyone Crooked Hallelujah is going to be out in bookstores soon, so please do preorder (from your local indie or whatever you prefer) and support great authors like Kelli Jo Ford. Thank you again and please feel free to leave us with any thoughts, ideas, lingering questions or issues you had, and know that we are so lucky to have you as a writer, and someone contributing so much to this world.
KJF: Matthew, I just want to say thank you. I really appreciate the work that you are doing to amplify literary voices. Thank you all for spending so much time thoughtfully considering Crooked Hallelujah and allowing me the space to think about it in new ways. Take care.
Apologies for freaking out but Samantha Downing is the biggest thriller writer working today, and she talked to us!
Matthew Turbeville: Samantha, I’m so excited to talk to you. I’ve been the biggest fan since your novel My Lovely Wife was first published, and I really feel like He Started It is perhaps the best sophomore novel in years. Can you tell me about how you came up with the idea, and without spoiling the reader, hint at how you’ve developed some of the twists?
Samantha Downing: Thank you so much, what an incredible thing to say! I originally came up with the idea when a friend told me about a recent road trip with her family. They had a bunch of problems along the way – a flat tire, a trip to Urgent Care when someone got sick, a stolen wallet. Nothing as dramatic as what ended up in the book, but it made me think about using a road trip for the basis of my next book.
MT: What’s your favorite part of writing a novels like this? I’ve had to put the book down numerous times, mainly because I’m either terrified or laughing so hard I can’t handle the book. The characters can be both terrifying and hilarious, sometimes back to back. Who are these characters, and how did you decide how to develop them and how they would fit into the novel?
SD: The characters aren’t based on anyone specific, but parts of them are. My goal is always to create compelling characters. They may not be people you love or people you want to hang out with, but I hope readers find them interesting enough to keep reading. There’s a long history of characters like this. Hannibal Lecter isn’t someone you want to have dinner with but he’s fascinating! So are Amy and Nick from Gone Girl, and Joe from You. When I’m writing, I don’t think about the characters are likeable or unlikeable at all. I honestly don’t think it matters as long as the characters are interesting.
MT: What are the books you feel helped shape the way you wrote this novel? What did you read between your first book and your second that really changed the way you wrote these two novels, and how very different they are?
SD: I’ve read a lot of thrillers over the past year. I love Kaira Rouda’s books, and Robyn Harding has become one of my favorites. The Swap was one of my favorite books I’ve read. It’s dark and creepy and everything I love! I also loved The Whisper Man by Alex North, which has a gut-punch of a twist.
MT: There’s a big issue of what a heroine is. In your mind, what do you think a heroine is, and how is your heroine different from Emma or Madame Bovary or Scarlett O’Hara? Do you feel they’re that different at all?
SD: I think the definition of a heroine has evolved over the past years. She doesn’t have to be perfect, but there are standards—specifically for women. I mention a few of them in He Started It. For example, a wife who cheats. It’s acceptable for men but not for women. For example, look at the TV show Mad Men. Don Draper cheats on his wife a lot, yet somehow it’s totally acceptable for him to be the anti-hero of that show.
Now imagine the same show with a female lead that cheats on her husband all the time. I suspect that show would never have been made.
MT: When writing the novel—and when writing any novel—how do you plot things out? Do you sort of just write, or do you plot things meticulously? The book counts down days and states, so it seems like you’d have a lot planned, but I wonder if a lot of the planning comes in revisions and rewrites. Will you tell us a little of how you work?
SD: Actually, I don’t plot at all. I don’t outline. I just start writing from chapter one and go from there. It’s an organic process for me, and that’s what makes it so fun. I discover the story the same way someone does when they read the book. Of course, that means lots of revisions but the process works for me. Outlining does not.
MT: When did you decide about the dynamics between the siblings, and was there ever a sibling you did or didn’t like? Do you go into your writing judging the characters, or are you trying to keep a distance? How quickly could you sink into Beth’s mindset, and was it hard to think outside of her own mind and thoughts or was it easy to understand each character, no matter how you the writer and us the reader get into Beth’s head?
SD: I don’t judge my character at all, nor do I think of them as likeable or unlikeable. I write them as they are now, given the background they have and the family they came from. It’s always difficult to write a book—any book, regardless of who the characters are—and I’m not sure mine are any more difficult than anyone else’s.
These characters are siblings with a lifelong history together, so once I figured that part out the rest of it came naturally. Siblings have rivalries, they have established relationships with one another. For instance, Beth’s relationship with her brother Eddie is very different than her relationship with her little sister, Portia. Creating the bonds they have, and how they affected their actions, makes writing them a lot easier.
MT: You wrote what some might call (I hope not) a #metoo novel but you never talk on the nose or use the term “#metoo,” etc. I really appreciate it (just like I do with any political or social issue) because I feel it’s so much effective when you show things—not to be too deep into spoilers, but the slamming of fists, for example—and we understand so much more than the character explaining a social justice issue to us. Did you find it hard to go deep into showing and not telling, or is this something that comes natural to you? You do such a good job of presenting evidence, foreshadowing to how a character could be and why we might fear him or her, and I wonder if this comes easy to you?
SD: Actually, I don’t see this as a #metoo novel at all! It’s funny how people interpret things differently. One of my pet peeves at the moment is calling a book a “feminist” thriller or “feminist” suspense novel. Feminism means equality. That’s it. But now, post-metoo, it’s being used to mean revenge.
Again, my focus is on the characters in the book and doesn’t focus on any political or social commentary. Beth’s reaction to things is based on what she has experience in her past, yet some women may relate to it because Beth is a woman. And that’s great. If people relate to my characters—good, bad, or a mixture—then I feel like I’ve done my job.
MT: In what ways do you really feel women are changing literature, and more specifically crime fiction? Why do you think it’s so important that we’re getting to see the points of views of writers of color, queer writers, female writers, etc? Do you think we’re getting to see different crimes, or maybe different angles of various crimes, or perhaps viewing traditional characters differently?
SD: I think everyone has a voice – all genders, all races, all religions, all sexual orientations. For me personally, it’s fascinating to read a book that comes from a completely different viewpoint or background than my own. It feels like more and more people are beginning to appreciate that there are great books written by all kinds of people, regardless of whether you have anything in common with them or not. A great book is a great book, period.
MT: You’re rapidly becoming my favorite author, but not just me. My grandmother keeps a hardcover of My Lovely Wife on her table. She tells people like her dog groomers to read the book, and they love it. My mother is very serious about our “quality time” listening to the audio of My Lovely Wife and will not hesitate to shush me if I comment on a scary or funny scene. What do you think is so appealing to, really, everyone about your books?
SD: Thank you so much! I have no idea why it’s so appealing, but I’m so grateful that it is! My Lovely Wife is a pretty dark book, so I didn’t know how many people would like it. I’m so happy to learn there are a lot of people who enjoy this sort of dark, satirical type of thriller.
MT: In My Lovely Wife, we see bonds between husband and wife, and we do to an extent with He Started It as well, but what about the bonds between siblings? What’s so interesting to you and other crime writers about family connections of various kinds, and which did you have more fun writing about and examining? Which did you feel you learned more about when you wrote?
SD: Siblings have a bond, and a shared history, like no other. You may have friends you grew up with, but they didn’t have the same parents and they didn’t live in the same house. Your siblings did. They know exactly how to push your buttons. They know embarrassing things about your childhood – who you had a crush on, who broke your heart, the bad things you got away with and the ones you didn’t. It’s really a relationship that can’t ever be replicated because it happened during your formative years, and that’s fascinating to me.
MT: What’s the most important thing you feel you’ve learned when you’ve written, and will you share it with readers?
SD: The most important thing is how I feel when I’m writing. If I’m bored, the reader will be bored. Guaranteed. That’s when I use the delete button. A lot of writers will disagree with me on that, and I know a lot of writers save everything they’ve written, even if they don’t look at it ever again. I don’t. If it doesn’t work, and I know it doesn’t work, there’s no point is saving it. Delete.
MT: Can you give us a hint as to what’s coming next? Do you have a work in process?
SD: I’m currently in edits for my third book. It’s another thriller but that’s all I can say right now!
MT: Samantha, THANK YOU so much for letting me interview you. We at Writers Tell All love you so much. I am so thankful that you exist at all and that you’re sharing your work with the world. Your novels have helped save me in various ways when I needed them, and I’m sure they will continue to do the same for various other readers. Thank you, and please, if you have any lingering questions, comments, or thoughts, leave them below. Thank you again.
SD: Thank you so much for having me! These have been really thought-provoking questions, and I truly appreciate that. You’ve been a fantastic supporter of my books and I can’t thank you enough!
Matthew Turbeville: Mr. Sallis, it’s an honor to get to interview you. Sarah Janestruck something deep within me, and I loved it, just as I do your other books. It’s such a compact, compressed, piece of dynamite type of book. How do you manage to compose so much and pack it into so little without everything being crowded? What do you think is the value of a short novel as opposed to a long, sprawling epic, excluding reading time, and other basic uses?
James Sallis: Much of this comes from my beginning as a poet. Poetry’s progress isn’t logical and linear; it makes its own way by association, by cognitive, intuitive, sensual leaps, by imagery, by the rhythms and sounds of its lines. A great deal of information of every sort – emotion, connection, conflict, impression – gets loaded on. One of the things my students hear over and again is: Get as much of the world as possible in every phrase, every sentence, every line and paragraph.
The novels are in no way minimalist. For me, a novel like Willnot or Sarah Jane has the stuff, the material, of a novel three or four times its size. Every action has a history and a future; shadings of those plead to be in your limning of the present, in the heartbeat and breath of what you write. You want to get it right, get the whole of the experience, not just throw words up against it.
MT: Who were your influences? I remember hearing that James M Cain wrote to make every sentence count, and every sentence must count toward the story and the novel. What authors affected you most growing up, and books too, as well as now, those living today, and those whose legacies live on?
JS: The first fiction with which I fell in love was the first I read, purloined from my older brother’s bookshelves: science fiction. That led to my first “career” as writer, to my editing New Worlds in London, to my oldest friends, and to the books column I’ve written for The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction for many years now.
The writer who first got me wondering how in the world he did it, who made me look close to try and figure that out, and who finally caused me understand that this was what I wanted to do, was Theodore Sturgeon. I go back to his work regularly. I am still amazed and empowered by it.
MT: The titular character of the novel, Sarah Jane, is somewhat forced into the role of sheriff, and also into a certain kind of destiny, or fate (there was a wise quote I heard recently, about young and older people, and the difference between destiny and fate relating to the two). Do you mind elaborating on what choices you think characters have in noir and crime fiction, and what role fate and destiny places in the genre?
JS: I dislike the term noir, which, like jazz, long ago lost its ability to signify. But if we return to the classic stamp, noir is a form in which the novel becomes the record of that utter damnation for which the individual protagonist is heading from the first page. It is, in that sense, a demotic tragedy. By contrast, the classic mystery template is socially oriented and conservative, shaped around disruption of the norm and a bringing-back to order. We say “crime fiction” now because the language cried out for a generalist term.
Rather in violation of standard novelistic practice, Sarah Jane’s early history had to be sketched, to prepare for the quite individual manner in which she simultaneously accepts and challenges her fate. Both here and in Others of My Kind I’ve become invested in individuals with truly horrible pasts – my character in Others was kidnapped as a child and kept in a box beneath a bed – who emerge as truly good people.
MT: What was writing a novel like this like? I know a lot of people must assume “Writing a short book is so much easier than writing something Proust-sized,” or something like that, but I’ve always found compacting things and making something small, and making it work and have the same effect as a longer novel, is so much tougher. What’s your writing process like, and what is writing shorter novels like for you? Are you drawn to length or do things just unfold that way?
JS: Often with students, after reading a story or chapter in which there are, say, six scenes, I’ll ask them to go home and rewrite all of it to one scene. Reject the first things that come to mind. That’s transcription, not creation; you’re mimicking things you’ve read and seen. Rethink it. How much do you need to tell? Where do you want to start? What a character notes of his or her surroundings, body language, the sound of a fly buzzing in a glass, trucks spilling waste as they pick up garbage in the alley – what might this contribute? It’s all about information, on every level.
My favorite quote concerning revision is from Jim Burke. He says he rewrites again and again, till the page fairly crackles in his hand when he picks it up. And the other half of that art lies in the reader not even noticing this because it goes down so smoothly. What Durrell called “the thread of blood from the unfelt stroke.”
MT: You also wrote Drive, among numerous other great novels. Drive was turned into a hit movie, and it has a sequel too (I’m not sure if as many people are aware of this, but go pick up a copy now, if you, the reader, have not already). What draws you to characters and storylines, and what drove you back to the story behind Drive, the novel?
JS: Lew Griffin came to life in a single story, which became The Long-Legged Fly, which then became five more novels – because I was interested in the character, wanted to know more about him. With Drive, we know the story told in the novel, and we know how Driver’s life ends, but we know nothing of what happened between. And that’s what Driven provides. In
some ways, it seems to me a better novel than the first.
MT: You also write series as well, and I’m always curious how mystery writers decide what fits into a series novel and what works as a standalone, other than really obvious things. How do we determine a certain mystery belongs in a series with certain characters—and do you begin deciding a mystery based on characters, or does the mystery draw recurring characters to the story?
JS: My mantra here is “Listen to the text,” it will tell you what it wants to be. Ideas for a story may become a poem in the actual writing, a story idea becomes a novel as you write forward into it, what you believe will be a novel (“Dayenu,” published in Lady Churchill’s Rosebud Wristlet, reprinted in Rich Horton’s best-of-the-year science fiction anthology) finds its form as a 13,000-word story.
MT: What book or books do you hope to be remembered for most? What do you hope people—readers, Americans anyone—to take away from your work?
JS: Any of the novels will do, they’re all pretty good kids. What people will remember and take away? The intense and simple humanity of my characters.
MT: There’s been—I don’t know if I’d say an explosion—but a bit of an opening for rural noir, for Southern noir (something you’re often categorized in) and I wonder what you think the importance of regional noir is for writers and readers? What about Southern noir specifically, and how does this play into Sarah Jane and her story?
JS: Certainly a part of it is that as readers andas writers we grew weary of story upon story set in cities. Also, relentless homogenization. We see those towns, these mini-cultures, fading away, recognize that we are losing them and with them a vital diversity that formed this nation. They’re tearing down the crossroads and putting up a CircleK.
MT: Would you mind sharing with your fans what’s coming up next for you? I for one would be delighted to know anything about a future work in progress, and hope there’s much more to come in your career. Please feel free to share what you feel comfortable with.
JS: A new story collection is due from New Rivers Press early next year, as is a double volume of critical essays, combining a new edition of Difficult Lives with a new collection of essays on crime writers, Hitching Rides, from Soho Syndicate. I’m working on (groping in the dark, stumbling and recovering) two new (maybe?) novels. New stories appear and are forthcoming in F&SF, Asimov’s, North Dakota Quarterly, Interzone, Analog, North American Review, Hitchcock’s, EQMM, various anthologies.
MT: Thank you so much for allowing me to interview you, Mr. Sallis. It is always a pleasure to read your books, and I’m so glad I got to pick your brain briefly. I am so thankful for your writing, as I know it has changed my own writing, and affected the writing community immensely. Thank you so much, and feel free to leave us with any lingering questions, thoughts, or feelings. Thank you again.
JS: Thank you, Matthew. I suppose I must make a choice now: get back to work, or go play with one of the cats. I’m going to sit here a moment and think it over.